#192: Confidence & Authenticity: How You Can Cultivate Both to Become More Impactful with Nicole Kalil
When we're creating something new or changing directions in our life - the thing often standing in our way is the confidence to move forward.
Today we dive deep into the relationship between confidence, authenticity, and self-trust and how to cultivate each so that they work together to our advantage.
To help me have this conversation, I'm joined by "confidence sherpa", bestselling author, and podcast host Nicole Kalil. Together, we unpack what it truly means to be confident and authentic in a world that is often filled with noise, comparison, and external validation.
You’ll discover why confidence is much more than just a feeling—it’s a choice and a skill we can all develop. Nicole Kalil breaks down confidence from the etymology of the word to the difference in how men and women experience it through-out a life span. But more importantly, we get into how to take small steps, how to identify "confidence derailers" in your life and how cultivating self-trust sits at the center of it all.
Be sure to listen through for Nicole's real-life example of what starting from self-trust looks like with her podcast This is Woman's Work.
This is a really good one - if you are wanting to connect with your confidence and authenticity more this year and learn how you can begin to approach cultivating it in small ways, then this ones for you.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
How taking small, intentional actions builds both clarity and confidence—especially when you're starting something new or stepping outside your comfort zone
How to identify confidence derailers
Why podcasting can be a powerful pathway to self-development, confidence, and authentic connection—whether your audience is large or small
Why cultivating self-confidence and authenticity are connected to your internal outcomes and influence how you create impact
09:10 "Imperfection of Confidence and Authenticity"
13:47 Redefining Confidence
18:33 "Building Trust Through Commitments"
20:59 "Building Confidence Through Trust"
26:48 "Reframing Stories for Empowerment"
30:48 "Action Builds Confidence"
41:22 "Podcasting: Value Beyond Direct Profit"
46:34 "Confidence, Joy, and Self-Trust"
49:33 Confidence Comes from Within
52:36 "Gender and Confidence Gap"
Read the Full Transcript
Christina [00:04:14]:
Welcome, Nicole.
Nicole Kalil [00:04:16]:
Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be here.
Christina [00:04:19]:
I'm so excited for you to be here as well. You're one of the connections that I've brought on, on because you've written something that I'm really sort of that hit a note for me. I love my email newsletters that I get from certain people, and oftentimes that becomes a really synergistic connection. And you were one of those that I invited on the show in that manner. So welcome and thank you for saying yes.
Nicole Kalil [00:04:45]:
Thank you for inviting me. I'm sure you can relate, but when you put stuff out into the world like that, it is so meaningful to find out that it, you know, lands or that it resonates or that it hits a nerve or hits something in you, especially because we're inundated with crap emails nowadays. That means a lot to me. Thank you.
Christina [00:05:05]:
Yeah, I mean, that is such a good point. And it's something that I want to talk about for two seconds because it's true. Like, as content creators or just creators in general, we put things out into the world like podcasts like this or, you know, we write. Maybe you're a blogger, maybe you write emails and it's. Or all of the above. And we're doing it for, you know, you, the person on the other side and for ourselves. But it's. It's hard to know sometimes.
Christina [00:05:31]:
Like, is it working? Like, am I, am, I resonating?
Christina [00:05:35]:
I talk about resonance a lot and, and so, yes, obviously it resonated. But I want to point out that if you're out there and you're like, I don't know if it's working or if I should start. It can lead to other things, like this moment we're having right now. And so I want to encourage people to, like, respond to something that you are resonating with because it may go somewhere. You never know where you, where it can take you. And it's all about connection anyway. And so here we are connecting. So that's the beauty of sort of starting an engagement.
Nicole Kalil [00:06:09]:
I'd also add too, I think, because when I'm on the other end, we make up a lot of noise about, oh, you know, they're busy or they don't need my encouragement, or they probably get 1 million responses, or, you know, you don't even think to do it. And on both ends, I think it's really meaningful. But yes, as somebody who puts a lot out into the void. Right. I mean, when you do a speaking engagement, you can sort of gauge people's reactions, but when you do a podcast or send a email out to your community, you don't really know unless somebody takes the time to respond. And let me just reiterate the point that you made is how often these lead to bigger and better opportunities. So just a reinforcement of what you already said.
Christina [00:06:53]:
Thank you. I love that. And you're right. That's a good thing to add. It's like, I, I. And it did. For a second I hesitated and was like, you know, what if she never gets the email, that's fine. It just, that's enough for me to just be able to, like, share, share that.
Christina [00:07:07]:
You brought me some joy. So actually we're talking about confidence today in connection with authenticity. And I feel like that kind of kicks it off a little bit because to me, that's related in so many ways of just sort of being yourself, sharing openly and seeing how that resonates and connects. And at the end of the day, brought me enough fulfillment to share that with you. And knowing that you already shared with me has this lovely reciprocity to. So I say that to say that, like, being in your authentic, you know, sphere, space, whatever that, like expressing from that place, it just feels better, point blank.
Christina [00:07:48]:
And it brings you freedom. It brings you so many things. But I think it's very linked to confidence because it takes a lot of courage to actually get to a place where you can. An intentionality to really sort of execute and lead from that place. Do you agree? And then how do you see that connection?
Nicole Kalil [00:08:07]:
Yeah. So first, yes, I agree. And I'm Going to kind of think out loud on this because these are things that I'm constantly thinking about. Confidence as a topic is my area of. And I put in air quotes, expertise, because it's a weird thing to feel like or to call yourself an expert on. But when I speak on stages or. One of the topics that we cover the most on my podcast is the topic of confidence. And it relates to so many other things, like authenticity, like courage.
Nicole Kalil [00:08:39]:
And it's also wildly misunderstood and miscommunicated and misrepresented out there. So, yes, I agree with you. And I think the way I see it is overlapping circles. Confidence is its own thing. Authenticity is something else. Courage is something else. And our. The way we feel the best, the way we show up the best is when we're in that part where all three of the circles overlap.
Nicole Kalil [00:09:10]:
Now, not a single human that I've ever met, myself included, ever, is always in that place where all three overlap. Nobody's 100% confident 100% of the time, with the exception of maybe narcissists and people who are lying to themselves. Not aspirational in any sense of the word. And nobody's courageous every moment of every day or authentic at all interactions or anything like that. So I think it's acknowledging that these are connected but different things and that there is the opportunity for us to be any one of those things or all of those things, but we will never be any one of those things or all of those things all the time.
Christina [00:09:55]:
Totally.
Nicole Kalil [00:09:56]:
Does that make any sense?
Christina [00:09:57]:
It does. I love the visualization of having this sort of. I forget what this is called. Like, what kind of diagram where you have the circles and then you have the middle, like, section that. Yeah, all connect.
Nicole Kalil [00:10:08]:
Venn diagram. Right? Is that right?
Christina [00:10:09]:
Venn diagram. And I was like, am I. Is that right? We'll call it that for now. And so that helps kind of see that there's part. There's always multiple facets and parts of us that are all working together. But I think understanding that there have a connection and that there is an overlay is important because I don't know that I thought of it that way always. I think there was a time where I was just like, yeah, like, I wish I had more confidence or, you know, and then the more we say things like that to ourselves, the more we take that identity on, that maybe we are not confident. And that's just like, that's not for me kind of a thing.
Christina [00:10:49]:
So it's interesting how these topics can really, like, how we can spiral or work with them. And understanding that there is a connection between how we can have confidence as our authentic selves I think is interesting because there is the, you know, act as if exercises in certain arenas that we maybe aren't used to exercising our confidence and figuring out how to do that in a way that feels good. And you know, speaking of things like social media or places where we want to have more impact, let's say, how do we start showing up in spaces that maybe are new to us, that we're curious about and have confidence and authenticity? Like I find those two things interesting as an interplay because of, just like you said, the multifaceted nature of each and all the other things. Yeah, there's a question in there yet.
Nicole Kalil [00:11:49]:
But no, no, no. And I think there's a lot to it. I think, you know, let's take authenticity and social media as an example. I do believe that we should show up authentically and we also need to be very mindful that we are in a perception format. Same with at work or when you're advocating for yourself or when you're standing on stage. You know, I don't think we can get away with just saying, this is who I am, take it or leave it. Which would be like pure authenticity, right? Like, oh, I'm going to show up as my most, my most self. Self is, you know, pajamas, slippers, casual cursing, ranting, you know, like when I have no filters whatsoever.
Nicole Kalil [00:12:36]:
I'm going to show up in ways that may not be appropriate or impactful if you factor in the format we're showing up in. So how do I show up authentically on social media is a question for all of us to tackle. How do you show up as yourself? Meaning don't fake, don't lie, don't pretend, don't exaggerate, don't whatever. But then how do I also be mindful of the fact that I'm on a perception based platform and that I might be trying to sell something or you know, share something or whatever. And so this idea that we're just like 100% authentic everywhere we go is a load of crap. Also wildly ineffective, like, that's not gonna work. And so I think there is this need to navigate between both and then to complicate matters even further, take any one of those topics and we would define them wildly different. If I line 10 people up and ask them, what is confidence? I'm going to get 10 different definitions, most of them inaccurate.
Nicole Kalil [00:13:47]:
Because we have confidence as a feeling, we often know how to look confident More than we ever do, how to be or become confident. And most of our definitions are iterations of something that somebody told us. And so in my work I actually went to the etymology of the word, looked at how it translates and how it's evolved over time and into different languages and really try to get clear on what are we actually talking about here. What is confidence? And there are of course different definitions or different dictionary definitions, but I wanted to try to lock in on something that honored the true meaning of the word because I do believe it's been hijacked. I mean, everybody knows we want to feel confident, so they try to sell us confidence through products and courses. And we're so focused on external version of confidence, executive presence, how to show up confidently that we just don't even know what it is that we're talking about anymore. And I would argue that that could be said of authenticity and of courage as well. We would get some wildly different definitions of what that means, what it looks like, how it shows up and all the things.
Nicole Kalil [00:15:06]:
So getting clear on what it is that we're talking about and what your definition is of each of those things, then like, yeah, how do they intersect and overlap? How does one feed the other? What are their relationships? How do I want this to show up in my life, on social media, at my work, with my family, in my relationships? And now we could talk for literal hours because it's complex and evolving.
Christina [00:15:32]:
Yeah, I love that. And when I would say, like, yes, I think we all would benefit from a self defining version of all of these things, like, what does it actually mean to us? What's the important takeaway that we want from each? But I'd also love to hear where you said you were really interested in locking in a definition. And did you? Do you have one?
Nicole Kalil [00:15:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. So the definition that feels most accurate and aligned with the etymology of the word is firm and bold. Trust in self. Confidence is when you trust yourself firmly and boldly. If you look at the etymology and the iterations of the word, it always comes back to trust. Faith and belief pop up quite a bit too. But trust is the founding word of confidence.
Nicole Kalil [00:16:23]:
Think about things like confidential. We're talking about keeping information safe. We trust that somebody is going to hold that information safe. Or confidant, that's a person we trust with our intimate information. Or even con artist, confidence artist. Right. They steal from us. But we don't call them a thief.
Nicole Kalil [00:16:44]:
We call them a con artist. Because what they do before they take is they establish trust. They build Trust first and then they steal from us. So confidence is ultimately and firmly about the trust we have with and for ourselves. It shows up in external ways, but it's fundamentally an inside out proposition, not the other way around.
Christina [00:17:11]:
Totally. I love that one. Didn't know con was shortened from the word confidence.
Nicole Kalil [00:17:17]:
Yeah, it was. A confidence man was what it used to be back in the days.
Christina [00:17:22]:
Can't wait to share this with everyone I know outside of the podcast listener sphere. But wow, that's really fun and I love that. But I totally have questions about self trust here. So I'm glad that that's sort of where we landed with the definition because it does feel very linked to me. Authenticity feels linked to this conversation for that reason. So being able to trust that you'll make those decisions in different spaces and know, you know, the versions of yourself that and how to have boundaries along with that, you know, trusting yourself to know what those are and all of that is like packed into this idea of the two concepts that I brought up at the beginning with confidence and authenticity. And self trust is sort of the link. I think that there's many links, but I think it's one that's at the core of each that we all kind of want to get to.
Christina [00:18:15]:
I think self trust is maybe the key to freedom, maybe the key to a lot of things that we want. With that said, how. How can we start beginning to develop more self trust so that we can kind of feel the confidence that we want to feel and feel authentic?
Nicole Kalil [00:18:33]:
So I can give you a handful of different ways that I think are pretty general or universal. But before I do, I would invite you, and you, the listener, to think about how you build trust with the people in your life. How did you come to trust the people that you trust? How do they trust you? Because that is going to give you some insight into what's most important to you in building trust and whatever that is, that's where you want to start. Because what works for me might not work for another people, but. Or another person. But there are a few things that I think work for most of us, and I'll give a few examples. First, we do tend to trust people who keep their commitments more than we trust people who don't. Right? So if you're trying to build trust in and for yourself, a good starting point is to keep the commitments you make to and for yourself.
Nicole Kalil [00:19:28]:
We have become so good at prioritizing the commitments we make to other people. Our children, our bosses, our colleagues, our friends, our parents. I mean, the List goes on. And we tend to prioritize the commitments we make to other people over the commitments we make to, to ourselves. And when it comes to our own confidence, firm and bold trust in self, I would submit to you that a great place to start is to start prioritizing and keeping the commitments that you make to yourself. On that note too, I think one of the things that we can do is stop over committing. We have a tendency to commit everywhere, all the time. You know, like it's okay in some cases to say I'll do my best, it's a maybe, or I'll get to it if I can.
Nicole Kalil [00:20:12]:
Especially if we're doing that because we're prioritizing the commitments we make to ourselves. So that's one example boundaries you mentioned earlier. I think that is a great representation, a great way to build trust with ourselves and with other people. It says, you know, this is what I'm okay with and this is what I'm not, or this is the line or the, you know, in which I'm willing to operate and here's where I'm not. And so when we communicate our boundaries and stick to our boundaries, we again build trust with and for ourselves and with the people that we're communicating our boundaries with. Standing up for yourself, speaking your truth. Who you surround yourself with really matters. When building self trust.
Nicole Kalil [00:20:59]:
I would submit that there are encouragers and detractors. Nobody can give you confidence and nobody can take it away. But there are certainly people who can support and encourage it. And there are also people who will do whatever they can to try to destroy or get in the way or create an obstacle of it. And so being mindful of who you surround yourself with can be a huge factor and how much trust you build with and for yourself. So those are some examples I could probably go on, but I'll just go back to what's important to you. When you build trust in your relationships and how do you turn that inward? That's a great way to start building that trust. And then there are ways that, that will begin to play out in your life that will continue to build that confidence.
Christina [00:21:47]:
I love that. Yeah, that makes so much sense. I wouldn't have thought of starting there like, well, how am I thinking about trust when it comes to others and my, you know, my community or whatever it may be and sort of it's just a great starting place because we all move through the world in one way or another with that.
Nicole Kalil [00:22:07]:
Well, and I'll give you an extreme example. I think many of us Especially those in relationships would say fidelity is an important part of trust. Right. We lose trust with people who talk badly behind us, behind our back, or who cheat on us or anything like that. And it's a powerful question, but how committed are you to yourself? Where is your level of fidelity with and for yourself? It's a really powerful question, but I think we are not as true to ourselves as we would like to be or what we would hope for in relationships. And of course, that's a great way and a great place to start because we unconsciously create in relationship whatever our beliefs are, whatever is going on internally.
Christina [00:22:59]:
Yes, I talk about that a lot in terms of sort of that the unconscious belief system that is running the show for us in the background. And I often encourage a moment of just observing, sort of observing what we say to ourselves and observing our thoughts and our own interactions with ourselves, essentially. Would you have something to add to that or how would you approach.
Nicole Kalil [00:23:24]:
Yeah, so a thousand percent. I identified what I call confidence derailers. These are things that get in the way of our confidence, whether we're aware of them or not. And one of those confidence derailers is judgment. The judgment we have for ourselves and for other people is absolutely doing damage and destroying our confidence. And so I think the. As you said, the opportunity is to observe, to be neutral, to be curious. Those are the things that, when you're in your judgment, those are the things that pull you out of judgment and are more healthy and productive choices.
Nicole Kalil [00:24:07]:
Now, I have yet to figure out how to not default into comparison or to judgment. It happens. What I choose to do is not stay there. And that's where I think observing, curiosity, neutrality, those things come into play.
Christina [00:24:25]:
Yeah, I often. I had a strong default in those areas for a long time as well. And the things that worked for me to sort of switch, that was a lot of reframing. Again, starting with, like, the mental. So you're short, essentially, you're shortening the time you spend in there. Like you just shared and. And the moments are lessened as well. And I think that's what we want to get to is like, what's our calibration? Everyone's different.
Christina [00:24:51]:
How can we lessen the experiences of that default and minimize it and sort of recalibrate to better default? Yeah, me. And a reframe has been really nice and to. The observation part's really important. And then literally just saying the opposite, even if you don't believe it for a while and eventually you begin to feel more comfortable with that at first for me, that felt very icky. I was so unused to talking nicely to myself that it felt inauthentic. Speaking of authenticity. And so that can feel strange at first. Like our actual authenticity and kindness that we can have for ourselves can often feel inauthentic, which is mind boggling.
Christina [00:25:33]:
You're like, well then, then what is authenticity? Like, how do I get to it if this feels, feels weird and it's supposed to be good for me and my default, like all of those crazy, it's. It can get messy.
Nicole Kalil [00:25:42]:
Yeah, but so, so let's explore that a little because I have, like, I'm still thinking through this as well. I've struggled with things like affirmations or right refrain. So I'm a big fan of reframing things. But I had to really figure out a way that worked for me. Because when I said things that felt icky or that I didn't believe or that didn't feel honest or authentic, I had a really hard time with it. And so I had to figure out, like, how do I navigate through this in a way that feels good? And so there are a few tactics that work for me now. If affirmations or a solid reframe or just telling yourself something over and over and over until the belief and the feeling catches up works for you, great. Whatever works for you is great.
Nicole Kalil [00:26:34]:
Right. You gotta figure out. But maybe I'm a little bit more pessimistic. Well, I don't know what it is, but I had to figure out how to tell myself something different that also felt true.
Christina [00:26:47]:
Right.
Nicole Kalil [00:26:48]:
And so, you know, one of the exercises I often go through, and I didn't create this, I borrowed it from a bunch of different people and sort of put it together. But it's asking myself, what are the facts? What am I making up about the facts? That's like the negative self talk usually, or the story that isn't really working for me. And then the next question is, what is a more productive and empowered way to see the same set of facts? And so just recognizing first that my story and the facts are two different things. And then I have choice and agency over how I see that, and that there is a more productive and more empowered way to see it that might be just as true as the story I'm telling myself. And one of the questions I often ask myself when I'm struggling is, what would I say to my daughter or my best friend if she was dealing with the same set of facts? Because I tend to be much kinder, much more gentle Much more encouraging when I am communicating on behalf of somebody that I love than I am with myself. And I fundamentally believe we should, first and foremost, be someone that we love. But we're out of practice. And so I would, of course, challenge my daughter.
Nicole Kalil [00:28:09]:
I'm not gonna just tell her what she wants to hear. I'm not talking about toxic positivity or just being a cheerleader at all times, but I'm talking about telling the truth or my truth in a way that's kinder, gentler, more empowered, more productive. And that usually leads me to a reframe that I can buy into really quickly that feels just as authentic and honest and true as the old story I was telling myself. So, yeah, I don't know why. I've always struggled with affirmations, and I've always struggled with telling myself something that just doesn't. That I just can't buy into just yet. So that, like, process has been really helpful for me to get to something that I can buy into because I would believe it for someone else.
Christina [00:28:58]:
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing the sort of the pathway. It's why. It's like, what I wanted to dig into a little bit, because I think that there is a lot of speaking again, of, like, just social media and the platform. There's a lot of toxic positivity out there. And because that. I'm with you. I didn't elaborate on it, but it was very hard for me in the beginning, too.
Christina [00:29:19]:
And one of the exercises that worked for me was this idea of saying it to someone else or thinking of someone else. My background's also in theater, so that's actually an even older exercise. You know, like, talk to someone you love and it changes everything. And suddenly. Yeah, actor. So it works in real life, though, too. It's like making. Gives it context in a totally different way that allows us to do what you just shared about, which is, well, what if I said that to myself and feeling into it? And again, like, this idea of calibrating, like, maybe it still feels gross for a while, or maybe you don't believe it.
Christina [00:29:57]:
And, like, what can you believe? I think that curiosity is so important, and finding it, like you said, like, it takes time. It probably took me a few years to really understand what worked for me as well, but it was very similar to what you described. It's like my version of that. And eventually affirmations didn't feel so weird. I still gravitate more to questions. Everyone knows. I talk about that a lot. But asking a curious question of, of the situation or myself helps take me out of the.
Christina [00:30:26]:
All the other stuff. And I love that you use the word it's more productive. I think that can be key to, to motivate someone to want to maybe start thinking about it in a new way and reframing and creating more possibility and permission, I think is very linked to that too. Of like, well, it's more productive. Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Kalil [00:30:48]:
And I'll add the fourth question that I ask is how do I get into action from here? Because that is fundamentally both a confidence builder and the way we get good at anything is we get into action. We practice. We can't think, think hope or fingers and toes cross our way into anything. We, even if you buy into manifesting, action is a representation of the thing that you're manifesting. So, you know, there is this focus on what's the most productive way. I can see this because I know the next step is how am I going to get into action from here. Action builds confidence. And sure, it could be like big jump into the deep end of the pool kind of action, but I'm usually talking about small incremental steps toward whatever matters most to you.
Nicole Kalil [00:31:38]:
And usually when we are in our story or our negative thoughts or our head trash is what I like to call it, we're not doing anything. We're stuck. Yeah, we're in overthinking, you know, we're in overanalyzing, we're laying up at night. We're not in action, we're in inaction. And so that becomes really problematic both as it relates to our confidence and whatever it is that we actually want. And so if for no other reason, reframing from an empowered something that feels good, but yes, a productive place so that you can get back into action towards whatever it is that matters most to you. Because being stuck, stagnant, staying the same, that stuff doesn't work.
Christina [00:32:25]:
No. Yeah. Even tiny, like small steps are key. And as someone who I'm, I like, I'm a big thinker. I want all the steps. And that's just not how it works. This is a good example. I wrote an eight question outline.
Christina [00:32:39]:
I think I've asked you two questions from that outline. If I was like, no, we have to do the outline, we would have a very staccato conversation that would just flow in a very different way. And that comes from self trust. That comes from practice. Like you said, you've got to practice. It shows up in these small ways too, in moments like this being very meta right now. But it's true. Like, it comes back to these little moments of knowing that you can't control the how and knowing that it's just about the first step and then knowing what you want, I think is key.
Christina Barsi [00:33:13]:
And like walking towards that.
Christina [00:33:15]:
And the one thing I'd add to is action brings clarity. We often talk about clarity. Get clarity and then start so you can strategize and like all of the things to do. But in actuality, I think it's more about intention. Understanding where you want to get to or go, that's important to you and just finding those first few steps. And the rest kind of changes anyway once you get started. And then. Then the clarity and confidence comes.
Nicole Kalil [00:33:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. Anybody who has an A to Z game plan is not doing the thing because you really want an A to C game plan because you have no idea what D and E and F are gonna look like until you're in action. Until you're in it. Um, you said it beautifully. Because overthinking, being in action is a confidence derailer. But you can only plan and prepare so much. The rest of it is trusting yourself firmly and boldly as you go that you'll figure it out, that you can pivot, that you will take the information you've learned and do something with it that is so fundamental.
Nicole Kalil [00:34:23]:
We often want to wait to be or feel 100% ready. And that is not an available option for any of us. You can never feel 100% ready to do something you've never done before. The only way to get 100% ready is to do the thing. So I'm with you.
Christina [00:34:38]:
Yeah. It's kind of chicken and egg at first. Yeah. And when we're a beginner again, it feels we're back in that place of like. But how, you know, we want to know how. Or human. It's so human to do that. And if you haven't exercised the action part of the self trust, it can be so scary.
Nicole Kalil [00:34:59]:
Well, I'll give a hopefully relevant example. I'm sure you could give a million. I know I could too. But we're almost 400 episodes into the podcast that I host. This is woman's work. The podcast we have today versus the one we started or where. Like, I don't even know that you. I don't even know what is the same.
Nicole Kalil [00:35:20]:
I guess I have the same editor.
Christina [00:35:23]:
You're the same. Well, you're not the same. But you're still showing up.
Nicole Kalil [00:35:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's the same host. It has the same name. Every other possible thing has changed. The graphic has changed I don't know how many times. The structure, the topics. I mean, we originally thought we had like this formula that we were going to follow.
Nicole Kalil [00:35:43]:
That formula went out of window, like by episode 10. Yeah. You know, different mic, different software, different. Like, the idea that I would have or could have ever figured out how to get here six years ago is asinine. I needed those six years of experience to get to this point, and I'm sure the same will be true 400 episodes from now. I'll look back and be like, oh, that's totally different. But you got to jump in, you know, you got to figure some things out. And some things will be easier than you thought.
Nicole Kalil [00:36:20]:
Some things will be harder, some things will be unexpected. It's just you. That's part of the deal for all of it.
Christina [00:36:26]:
I love that you brought up your podcast because we're talking a lot about how podcasting as an act of self development is really maximizing in so many ways. Like it's, it's has such a big ripple effect. It just. Personally, even if, let's say, like, your community doesn't grow as big as you'd hope, it still has a ripple effect. I believe that in my heart and soul. I've experienced it many times. When you started, well, I'm just curious, like, did you have that experience? Like, did it, did it grow you essentially?
Nicole Kalil [00:36:59]:
Oh, a thousand percent. I, like, I could go for days on all the values and the benefits of podcasting. Being a host, sure, but also being a guest. There are so many ways you develop. Obviously you get more comfortable, more confident. I'm a big fan of what a great opportunity to reach multitudes by only having a one on one conversation. For those people who, like, have a fear of public speaking, podcasting is absolutely the way to go. If you want to get a thousand people or get impact a thousand people on stage, you're standing in front of a thousand people, you're very aware.
Nicole Kalil [00:37:36]:
If you want to impact a hundred thousand people through a podcast, you're still only having a conversation with one person. It's genius. Yeah, in your skills, develop your talking points, develop your beliefs and convictions. Every time somebody asks me a question, I'm like, ooh, how do I feel about that? Like, there's some, I have the answers ready, but you know, some it's like, all right, let's think out loud. You learn from each other. I mean, there's so many benefits.
Christina [00:38:03]:
I'm reflecting on my own journey because I've been. This show has been evolved so many times, so we just rebranded the name and, you know, all of the things you shared, we've done a thousand times, too. But we started in 2018, and then the first podcast, I started in 2013, so I've been in the game.
Nicole Kalil [00:38:18]:
That's incredible. You've been doing this for a while. Yeah, yeah.
Christina [00:38:21]:
And I have a podcast production agency, so I'm very much inside of how this all works with others, too. And seeing that evolution has been so fun. But we were talking about taking action, and to me, this is a great example of, like, how to show up for yourself every week, how to start understanding what you have to say and trusting yourself. Like, it develops all the things that we're talking about. It helped me become more confident in ways I didn't even realize. And it's like the way I show up in other spaces has changed. The way I talk about things is I have the confidence around those topics because I'm exercising that on a regular basis. And it teaches you how to take action in a way that is, I think, unique and how to reach out.
Christina [00:39:03]:
Like, just the email I sent you, for example, like, it teaches you how to do all of that. It just. You just start doing it. It's so interesting to. I mean, you need time to pass, but that's everything that you grow in. And I. I'm wondering, like, would you agree, does it. Did it do that for you in any capacity, or have you noticed? Yeah.
Nicole Kalil [00:39:25]:
Well, so you said something earlier that I think is relevant here, too. You know, my first year, I can't remember the numbers, but we did not get a lot of downloads. I. I think I could be making things up, but I want to say that we had, like, 2,000 downloads the entire year or something like that. And even with that, the people who were listening were people I knew or people I'd connected with and were engaged and active. And so many of those people either became coaching clients or referred me to somebody or put my name in for a speaking opportunity. So much came out of the podcast from a business and monetary standpoint that were indirect.
Christina [00:40:15]:
Right.
Nicole Kalil [00:40:17]:
It's interesting. The. So we're in our sixth year. The first four years, I mean, we were inching growth. Our fifth year was a breakout year. I don't know how many X'd we did, but we did 800,000 downloads in that year. And that felt like, oh, my God, you know?
Christina Barsi [00:40:42]:
Yeah.
Nicole Kalil [00:40:43]:
And then this year, we'll finish here just under 2 million downloads, I think, right about. I know, so that's doubled from one year to the next. But I really want you to think about this for a second. For four years, we had. We get more downloads in a day than we get did in the entirety of each of those years. And yes, I still get coaching and speaking and indirect opportunities from it, and that's exceptional. That's honestly the business value of it for me. But in the last year, we've been able to monetize the show through ads, which is great.
Nicole Kalil [00:41:22]:
Doesn't quite pay for everything, but it helps. And so there are lots of reasons to do it. And it doesn't need to be this monster show to have value, to have monetary or business success value. There are lots of things that happen even when you only have a handful of listeners. It's a great thing to call back if for another opportunity. If somebody's thinking of coaching with you or looking for a speaker, like, you can send them and they get a sense of who you are and how you speak and your topic and all of that. There's so many great reasons to do this, to be a guest, to host your own show if you, if you desire it. But I think for most of us, I think I read a stat like 99% of podcasts don't make money directly from their podcast.
Nicole Kalil [00:42:17]:
So, yeah, that's an important thing to know going in.
Christina [00:42:20]:
Yeah. And I just taught a masterclass on this. And it's not actually, it's. It's the normal. It's like 1 to 2%. It's like comparing yourself to celebrity. It's like that.
Christina Barsi [00:42:29]:
Sure.
Christina [00:42:29]:
Yeah. Jumping into, like I said, as an actor, it's like jumping in and going, I'm gonna be the famous one, right? Like, I'm gonna be the 1%. And you might be like, it's not dream, go for it. But what you just shared about the time span also in just your growth journey, that's pretty typical. It takes about three to four years to get to that place where you experience that kind of breakout year or you have, you know, and then there's strategies that come that you can start applying at that point to get that. And in my experience, did you change up your strategy a little bit and how you did you start focusing on growth?
Nicole Kalil [00:43:06]:
Yeah, we started prioritizing. We tested out some things, we implemented some promotion strategies. So sure, there were definitely some things that we did different. And like you said, I grew and evolved and I just really loved doing it. So I'm like, if I'm going to keep doing it, we Got to get a little bit more strategic and a little bit more thoughtful about it. It can't just be a passion project anymore.
Christina [00:43:28]:
Right.
Nicole Kalil [00:43:29]:
But to reiterate, too, is the top 1%, and the difference between that and the 0.01% is astronomical. Like, you think of, like a Mel Robbins. What she has going on with her podcast is so far away from where. What I have going on with mine. I mean, I probably get. She probably gets as many downloads in a day as I do in a year now. So, you know, again, this comparison thing that we do can be really, really challenging and can feel disheartening. And I think a lot of podcasting has been an exercise in confidence for me.
Nicole Kalil [00:44:08]:
It's trusting myself to put the best that I can out there. Trusting myself that there's a reason I love doing that, doing it, and that is reason enough to do it. Trusting that I'll figure it out. Trusting that, yes, this is wading through muddy waters, but I'm learning as I go. Like, I'll be okay no matter what. Whether our downloads go up or down or whatever. I'm still really proud of what we put out there. There are a lot of ways to exercise confidence in doing something like this, and that's another one of the reasons I love it.
Christina [00:44:39]:
Thank you for sharing that and just talking about it for a moment, because I do think it really ties in to the topic. And you brought up joy and passion doing something from that place. I will turn people away if they don't have that when they want to start a show. Because it won't be sustainable.
Nicole Kalil [00:44:58]:
Yeah.
Christina [00:44:59]:
Because I know exactly what this journey looks like, and I know exactly what that path is like from a creative and emotional standpoint as well. And the joy and passion has to be there, and it has to be like something that is ongoing. Like you want to be. You want to sustain it. Unless it's a miniseries or whatever. That's. That's not what I'm talking about. But I'd love to know, like, where.
Christina [00:45:24]:
Because you brought up confidence while you in, like, the same breath. So what's the connection there between the two? Like, can. Can joy, like leading from our joy? I think that's connected to confidence. What. What would you say to that?
Nicole Kalil [00:45:38]:
You know, that's a really good question. I'm going to think out loud on this. I. I'm going to go back to, you know, again, overlapping circles, right?
Christina [00:45:46]:
Yeah.
Nicole Kalil [00:45:46]:
I think when we trust ourselves firmly and boldly and. And go into something that is exciting or meaningful for us, Whatever it is, whatever you think your purpose or your passion or you know, that thing that's been on your heart for a while or something that you really want to do, it's going to require firm and bold trust and self to do it, to get into action toward it. And so, you know, there definitely is. This one leads to the other and then circles back like. But I want to be careful because at least in my experience, confidence doesn't always lead to joy.
Christina [00:46:21]:
Sure, yeah. It's like success, which to me it's a fun can of worms to open, which I won't get into because we'll go, we'll just talk for another hour. Yeah, but, but I agree with you. Go on.
Nicole Kalil [00:46:34]:
Yeah, no, I mean, there are a lot of things that I can think of, let's just say even business wise, that I have done with complete confidence. Like, I firm and bold trust that this was what I meant to be doing, that I had thought it out, that this was going to be the game changing thing. And it like, wah, wah, wah. I was like, shit, that didn't work out. So I think confidence isn't necessarily feeling joy or that it's going to create joy. Having said that, the idea of trusting yourself firmly and boldly and not feeling proud of yourself for doing it, or not feeling joy in the moments where things do work or they come together or you're like, oh my God, I did it. That seems crazy to me too. I mean, so often, regardless of the outcome, I felt joy and pride in just like, man, I did it.
Nicole Kalil [00:47:38]:
I took the risk, I put myself out there. Can't control the outcome, can't control people's reactions or feelings, but I can control. So I'll give another example. I wrote a book. I did something I'd always wanted to do. I checked something off my bucket list. I put my heart and soul into that book. I know that I created the best thing that I could have with the time, talent, experience, resources, energy that I had at the time that I wrote the book.
Nicole Kalil [00:48:09]:
And that was the only thing that I could control. I couldn't control how people read it, if they read it, what their ratings were, blah, blah, blah. I couldn't control learning new things after the book was out there and wanting to change something or realizing I could have done this better. I couldn't control that. I was a first time author. And so you, you can't be an experienced author without getting experience. Right? So this thing was like I felt and feel pride and joy of having done it, of doing the Best that I could of trusting that I'll be okay no matter what. You know, I like 5 star reviews better than 1 stars, but my confidence isn't tied to it.
Christina [00:48:54]:
Right, the outcomes.
Nicole Kalil [00:48:55]:
Right, the outcomes, yeah.
Christina [00:48:57]:
Circumstances. The outside circumstances, the outcomes. Which brings me to this concept of, you know, doing things that feel fulfilling. It's the pathway. I feel that authenticity and all of the things we're talking about kind of is actually what we want to get to, like the actual outcome. I think most of us, if not all of us, are humanly seeking is to feel fulfillment. And then the outcomes, our goals. Right.
Christina [00:49:22]:
They come and then they. They go. Yeah. Fulfillment can be something we can curate through joy, through actions, through pursuing all of these things. Yeah.
Nicole Kalil [00:49:33]:
What pops to mind is fulfillment, contentment, joy. These are internal things. When we think of metrics, dollars, results, these are external things. And we want to tie our confidence to those internal things because whenever we tie them to the external things, we become addicted to the external things, and then we want and need more of those things and we lose ourselves to them. And I think it's pretty easy to objectively see how that's not confidence. If I'm like a validation junkie, or I need somebody to give me compliments in order to feel good, or I need everybody to, you know, give me five star reviews or I fall apart, that's not confidence. We know that. And yet unconsciously, I think we tie ourselves so much to those external things, thinking that they'll give us the joy, the fulfillment, the whatever, as opposed to like.
Nicole Kalil [00:50:32]:
No, the joy. And the fulfillment is something that's between us and us. It's an internal thing. We create and we choose and it's hard. We're not going to feel it every moment of every day. But that's, I think, the opportunity for us to live fulfilling lives and to build our confidence.
Christina [00:50:50]:
I think that distinction and being aware of that distinction is key. And I don't know that all of us are approaching it from that distinctive awareness. And that is sort of maybe the game changer, starter point of, like, how much do I spend in this category and this category to get the experience I want to experience in my life? Right. In every category, business and life and, you know, fill in the blank, family. So that was great. I feel like these topics, particularly confidence, seems to be a topic very prevalent amongst women. I'd love your take on that, especially with, you know, the name of your podcast. Yeah.
Christina [00:51:31]:
And I. I speak mostly to women as well. And just why are we struggling with this more Perhaps, maybe that's just a perception.
Nicole Kalil [00:51:41]:
Okay, yeah. So first, I always like to state I do not advocate for women at the expense of men or any other gender. So my focus on confidence specifically for women is not meant to be anti or exclusionary to anybody else. It's just what I know, it's what I experience. It's, you know, what makes the most sense to me, the definition of confidence, the confidence derailers, the things that build confidence, those are gender neutral. Trusting ourselves is an opportunity any one of us can work toward and it's going to require practice and action on all of our parts. Having said all of that, I also know that there are nuances and differences and the research is pretty clear. Studies show that young girls and young boys, which is the only two dynamic that has been studied up to until this point.
Nicole Kalil [00:52:36]:
So enter any gender non conforming or it won't be included here. But that's the study. Young girls and young boys have about the same level of confidence all the way through early elementary years, typically around seven or eight is when we start seeing a little bit of a separation or disparity. And it's the widest gap in our teens and twenties. So the experience of confidence between women in their twenties and men in their twenties is very different. And if you think about what's happening for a lot of us in those years, we're often making big career decisions, school decisions, decisions about who we date or who we marry, whether or not to have children, having children, where we're going to live. I mean these are big, big life altering, life impacting decisions. And we're doing that as women, generally speaking, with significantly less confidence than our male counterparts.
Nicole Kalil [00:53:41]:
Research shows that that begins to come together in our 40s. In our 50s, women have about the same confidence as their male counterparts. And in our 60s we start seeing a separation again, but in reverse. Women having more confidence than men in our 60s and beyond. Okay, so it begs the question why? Which was your question. Of course it's complex and there are a lot of things, but I do think a few things. First, as young girls, we are conditioned. We are socialized to be very others focused.
Nicole Kalil [00:54:18]:
We're taught to be nurturing, we're taught to be caring. We often take care of siblings or help out at home. We're expected to, we are often expected to be well behaved in doing so. None of those things are necessarily bad. But we often disconnect from our own wants, needs and desires. And we start listening for and to the needs of other people. The opinions of other people, the expectations of other people, above and beyond our own voice. And that seeks to separate us from our confidence.
Nicole Kalil [00:54:50]:
Our value is often tied to how we look, which can be really disruptive to who we are and what we want. Yeah, there are a lot of things there. And then I think too, men's confidence is important, but it's narrowed, meaning men are expected to show up confidently in certain areas of their life, predominantly professionally and from a providing, protecting standpoint. So physically confident, successful, things like that. Women, especially in today's day and age, are expected to show up confidently everywhere. We're expected to be all things to all people, all the time, be it all, do it all, have it all look good while doing it and somehow make it all look effortless. And we are much more inclined to be community oriented. And so we have been taught to be mindful or afraid of other people's opinions at a really high level.
Nicole Kalil [00:55:50]:
The idea of being shunned or excommunicated out of any community is a much higher concern for women than it is for men. And so we pay attention to and we listen externally a lot more than we do internally. I think also with men, that speaks to why their confidence dips in their 60s. What's happening in their 60s, they're retiring. What they see is their value. Where they're the most confident goes away. And now they're left with navigating confidence in who they are and their value outside of what it's been tied to for so long, which is what disrupts and messes with their confidence. Whereas women, we in our 60s, are detached from some of the things that we have been connected to for a very long time.
Nicole Kalil [00:56:37]:
We're not as aware of people watching us or looking at us or caring about us. When we're in our elder years, good, bad or indifferent, there's that like invisible feeling. And also our body image isn't so much at the forefront at that age. And so we can kind of let that go and focus and hone in on who we are and what matters to us at that point. There is like, that I give less fucks at that age. Right?
Christina [00:57:06]:
Yeah.
Nicole Kalil [00:57:06]:
So, yeah, that was a long answer to your question, I hope. I.
Christina [00:57:10]:
That didn't feel long to me, that felt thorough in the best way. Because the study that you shared, it just sort of that sort of coming where we start and then where it separates and how it comes back together and how it separates. I mean, that's so interesting to me. And a lot of it resonates just as I was reflecting on my own life through each segment of the life journey of a woman. Right. And then thinking about my mom and like other people I know. And she's in her, she's just turned 70 this year. So it's like seeing everything you just shared reflected in, in life.
Christina [00:57:43]:
It feels very true. But that, that really helps put some perspective on how this topic is talked about. Yeah. Just thank you for pulling it together in, in that way. So I'd love to ask you as we're coming towards the end, because we talked about so many things, but if there's one takeaway you would love for the listener to have from our conversation today, what would that be?
Nicole Kalil [00:58:06]:
So we didn't actually talk about this, but I always think it's a good takeaway because we often think of confidence as a feeling and I want to distinguish it as a choice. Confidence isn't a feeling. It's a choice that we make and we get to make anytime we want, which makes it good news in my opinion. It's a skill we can develop. It's not something you're born with or born without or somebody has more of or less than. It is a skill that we get to develop. And so there's a common expression, fake it till you make it. As it relates to confidence, I would invite you to choose it until you become it.
Nicole Kalil [00:58:45]:
Choose confidence moment by moment if you have to. Choose firm and bold and trust in self, day by day, until the feeling catches up. And it will. But the choice comes first, not the feeling.
Christina Barsi [00:58:58]:
I love that.
Christina [00:58:59]:
That's very empowering. Beautiful. And now how can we connect with you? What are you working on?
Nicole Kalil [00:59:05]:
Yeah. So on the topic of confidence, I have a confidence derailer quiz which will help you hone in on which of the confidence derailers might be wreaking havoc in your life the most right now. And so you can go to nicolekalil.com confidence quiz and in that if you take the quiz, it'll also give you a 40 plus page confidence building workbook for free that will help you work on some of these internal trust building exercises and protect yourself against some of these common derailleurs. So that's probably the most relevant thing I can share. As we talked about the podcast, this is a woman's work is probably the next best option if you want more of anything that I have to say.
Christina [00:59:48]:
Awesome. Love that. We'll link to all the things. We'll definitely link to your website and everything you shared. Thank you so much. This was such a fun and rich conversation and I had the best time and I know the listeners will have lots to think about.
Nicole Kalil [01:00:02]:
Me too. Barsi, thank you so much for having me.
