#199: How To Step Into Your Feminine Leadership Era with Lisa Malia Norman
What if there were a way to lead with more sustainability and fulfillment (and leave the burnout behind)? My guest for this episode, Lisa Malia Norman, explains how Feminine Leadership is rooted in intuition, intentionality, and authenticity.
Instead of pushing through burnout or following traditional, patriarchal models of success, feminine leadership invites us to trust our inner wisdom and create regenerative outcomes that sustain us, rather than deplete us.
Lisa shares how her journey in corporate and as a breast cancer survivor lead her to founding supportive communities and leadership programs for women.
We discuss how creating intentional community spaces for and with women—like women’s circles and masterminds—allows women to shed old expectations, be seen authentically, and step into new leadership roles that are aligned with their values and desires.
The episode is filled with actionable insights on bringing more joy, clarity, and purpose into your life and work, simply by leading in a way that honors your whole self.
If you’re ready to move beyond hustle culture and explore a leadership style that’s more compassionate, cyclical, and community-focused, this conversation will inspire you to tap into your innate power and begin leading from a more regenerative place.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
The power of dedicated communities for women- for genuine support and connection
How to navigating burnout and honoring your true capacity as a creative, leader, and human
How to move from the toxic “hustle and grind” culture to regenerative, sustainable leadership and living
Why creative business owners need spaces to lay down the masks and be seen as they are
Reclaim Your Calling Audio Course - $47
Go from a desire to share your soul-led business’ message to clearly defining it so you can start attracting and building trust with your future audience and customers.
06:22 How leading in corporate, being a Midwife, and a Mother influenced leaning into Feminine Leadership
17:47 Permission to feel and heal
21:14 Creating communities for women with breast cancer
24:48 How to empower women through transformation with community
33:17 Defining Women in Leadership Support Needs
36:11 How we can break free from existing leadership molds
44:10 How to begin incorporating regenerative feminine leadership
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Read the Full Transcript
Lisa Malia [00:00:00]:
Getting to hold those spaces for women and knowing how we burn ourselves out so dramatically sometimes, because I've been so privileged to sit at the front rows of really the true innate power of wisdom and power of knowing and ability and capacity that we hold as women in points of transformation.
Christina Barsi [00:00:21]:
Hi, I'm Christina Barsi. Welcome to the Boss Goddess Podcast. This is your invitation to step out of the hustle and into your purpose and passion. What's my secret? Podcasting. This is how I've up-leveled my life on multiple occasions when I was ready to bring my dreams to life, and it's how I help my clients realize their big dreams. This is where you become the boss goddess in your niche and gently bring your dreams to life. Today I'm talking directly to the women listening who might be finding themselves in the in-between, which can look different depending on why you might be there. And what I mean by the in-between is you may be experiencing some burnout, you may be going through some healing, you may be ready for a new challenge, or just a new way of doing what you do, or how you want to show up next.
Christina Barsi [00:01:29]:
Or you may be burning it all down and starting anew, or giving yourself the opportunity to lean into something that was always there, but you're now considering answering that call. So today, my guest is Lisa Malia Norman. And Lisa Malia Norman is a vision and impact strategist, and she dissolves the lines between spirituality, leadership, and business. Lisa is a women's health and wellness leader and educator, breast cancer survivor and mama, feminine wisdom and embodied leadership coach, podcast host, nonprofit founder and CEO. And she helps people connect to their innate wisdom, trust their intuition, and embody their sacred purpose to access a life of deep clarity and unapologetic joy. Lisa also founded Evoke: The Feminine Leadership Immersion to bring more women together who want to live with greater clarity, purpose, and joy through intention, ritual, and mentorship as they navigate a new way forward through all the transitions of life, family, and business. So welcome, Lisa.
Lisa Malia [00:02:41]:
Barci, thank you. I really enjoy listening to that introduction. Especially at the beginning when you identify what women might really particularly enjoy this conversation. And so grateful to be here. Thank you for that and sharing my work here today and getting to dive into this conversation. It's one of my favorite places to hang out and podcasting, yes, but that in-between space that you spoke of that can sometimes feel a little bit terrifying, but I'm so familiar with it. It can also be really exciting if you embrace it and say yes to whatever is in front of you and open to that possibility.
Christina Barsi [00:03:24]:
Yes, absolutely. And I'm kind of in an in-between myself, so I'm resonating with this. It's probably how we, you know, synergistically aligned and found each other, sort of that attraction. Yeah, and it definitely works that way here in this space on the show, which I'm so grateful for, that sort of magnetism that comes when we acknowledge what we're really experiencing, I think, and connecting with that, even if it's painful or hard. And to that note, I agree, it can be all of those things. It can be exciting, it can be full of possibility, and that can be really exciting, or that can feel really frightening and confusing and even painful at times, depending on where you are in that process. So I love this space too, but it's when we're in it again, it's a good reminder to kind of find the parts that are going to help us through it. And it can change.
Christina Barsi [00:04:20]:
And I just want to say that too. It can really change from moment to moment sometimes. So having guidance, like someone like yourself, or even just listening to something like this, a conversation like this can be really useful and really grounding when we're experiencing that. Yeah. So I'm really, really happy to have you and so excited to have this conversation with you. I know it's going to be fruitful and healing. As we move forward and move through it.
Lisa Malia [00:04:44]:
Yes, I love that. I was just thinking about that before we started our conversation today, and that is what I love about podcasts, is it really gives you an opportunity to have an intentional conversation, and that is what creates the healing for the listener on the other end, you know, when they get to dive into that intention.
Christina Barsi [00:05:04]:
Absolutely. So well said, and I think you just very simply stated what I love so much about being in this space too. It's just the intentionality. It's what I love about anything I do that I feel connected to is when I can be intentional with it. And yeah, that's what makes this so fun and yummy.
Lisa Malia [00:05:26]:
Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes we don't do that enough in our everyday life with our people and our family and our friends, and I think that's what leaves So many of us yearning for more intentional conversations or relationships where we feel like we're being heard or seen or connected.
Christina Barsi [00:05:44]:
Yeah, and that is such a human part of our experience is finding ways to feel that way as often as we can. This is why I love this medium so much too. It's a good facilitator of those things. On that note, I would love to sort of dive in and learn more about you and your journey. And I know that there was a whole journey that led you to what you do now, or sort of evolved into what you do now, it seems. And if you could share more about that with the listener as well, sort of maybe how you were working with women previously that sort of built the foundation for what led you to what you're doing now.
Lisa Malia [00:06:22]:
Yeah, I appreciate that question. I started my first career, let's say, as a midwife, and It really, really is the foundation of who I am and how I serve women. And a midwife traditionally witnesses a woman, right? We do the technical things of making sure it's a safe birth and mom and baby are well, but the foundation really is to just witness the power of the woman, the birthing person, and hold her in a space while she goes through a major transition from maiden to mother, from unborn to born, to all the unraveling that happens in between, and all those moments that happen in a really small space of time, and through that transition to the other side. And that guidance and that way of holding women is something that's always spoken to me. I think I started out of the womb myself serving and witnessing women that way. I made it a profession at one point and still, you know, assist and guide women through major transitions, childbirth, and even when I myself got diagnosed with breast cancer, my life took many, many turns, and this is why I say I'm so familiar with that unknown space as you sometimes tear it all down and rebuild again. My spirit animal is a spider, right? So when you think about the spider building a web in a windstorm or a tree or a branch or a person walking by, how many times that web gets taken down and that spider just weaves it all together I feel like I've done that in my own life multiple times, and one of those times was finding myself a divorced, single mother of 3 girls. They are women now, and just working and hustling and grinding in the corporate world, trying to get, you know, all the benefits, the medical insurance, the lights on, the food on the table, and I was really— I don't want to say out of alignment because my mission was providing for my family, But I was not serving and holding my energy or taking care of myself or doing any of those things that would make this sustainable, and I was killing myself doing it, quite literally.
Lisa Malia [00:08:40]:
That is, the universe comes knocking on our door so many times saying, "You gotta slow down. You gotta change what you're doing. This isn't working." And I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. And yet I kept trying to negotiate with the universe, as I say, or negotiate with my own intuition saying, Okay, but let's wait till my next daughter graduates. Let's wait till this. I kept putting out these milestones like, I can do this just a little bit longer because I was so afraid of what was on the other side if I made a different choice.
Lisa Malia [00:09:12]:
I didn't know how I would survive, and I didn't think I even had time to make a different choice because I was so in it. And then, you know, the knocks got louder and louder, and eventually, you know, it came in the form of, Lisa, you're gonna sit down. You've got breast cancer. You're gonna sit down. You've got to stop everything. Everything has to stop. And it took me a long time even after the diagnosis to really receive that. I mean, my plan, honest to goodness, was to work through Friday, go have surgery on Monday, maybe I would need a couple days off, right? And then I would definitely be back to work by the next Friday, right? I so relate to that.
Christina Barsi [00:09:57]:
I don't want to laugh, but it's like, because it all Yeah, and I did that. I had a surgery earlier this year and I tried to do that. I did that and it was, yeah, I'm still suffering from some of the consequences of not completely resting. And it wasn't as severe of a diagnosis, but I came back from a conference and I had surgery the next day. Never had surgery before.
Lisa Malia [00:10:22]:
The exact same thing.
Christina Barsi [00:10:22]:
Yep. And everyone's like, you're doing what? Like, why are you not here? You're going to miss, you know, all of these silly things. And I was like, I can do it, it's gonna be fine, it's gonna be fine. Yeah.
Lisa Malia [00:10:34]:
I did the exact same thing. I was at a conference, I was leading the whole thing, working with big name clients all the way through to Thursday, and I was like, I'm going home and having surgery, and like nobody knew, nobody knew. I was just so in it, and it's absurd to me looking back on it, but I know so many women can relate to that, and I really did not think I could stop. And quite honestly at that point in time I was just angry that this happened to me. I had a lot of anger like, how, how can this be happening now, right? Like this can happen in 5 years but not now. But through that process, you know, after that diagnosis and really learning to sit down, my doctors had to sit me down, my doctor sat me down with my partner. I was dating a man at that time, this was before he was my partner, and she said, "She's not going back to work. She will not survive if she does.
Lisa Malia [00:11:29]:
You've got to like get her on board with this." And I'm really grateful for that. The other great advice that came was from my brother, and he's somebody that I consider to be very wise. I was the little sister that always looked up to him. My mother is a 2-time breast cancer survivor, and his words really changed me. And he said, "You get an opportunity here to stop." and let everything go. He goes, let the good go, let the bad go, let it all go, and then you decide one by one, piece by piece, what you want in your life. He said, take advantage of this, and it was still terrifying, letting it all, all of that was terrifying, but it felt so true when I heard those words. I knew they were true, and I thought, okay, I'm going to do this.
Christina Barsi [00:12:21]:
'As scary as it is, I'm going to do this.' So many chills as you share that part of the story, and it's so impactful the way that he decided to center you in that moment. Yeah, thank you for sharing that very special part of the story. Do you mind sharing the timeline between— because I find that useful for those of us who may be going through something like this, of like what other process timelines look like.
Lisa Malia [00:12:50]:
Yeah, not at all, and I completely agree. I couldn't agree more, actually, because so often, you know, as a breast cancer survivor, it's a very public, I want to say popular cancer, right? There's the pink ribbons everywhere, and so often you see these women wrapped in, you know, these pink bows, you know, "I'm a survivor," "We're done," "We're cured," whatever you want to call it, right? October, especially with all the fundraising and awareness campaigns, that you don't often see what's happening behind the scenes. And then I think there's also this very unrealistic expectation that even I put on myself. So often we see these women back to work within a couple weeks. They are doing it, you know, depending on what kind of work they have. And I'm not saying, you know, everybody has that choice. Choice of that opportunity, and it's just that that expectation that that's real and we should all be able to do that. I didn't work for a solid year.
Lisa Malia [00:13:52]:
It was devastating. I kept thinking I was going to go back, and every time I got taken down a notch again, and it was too soon. My body needed more time. I was having more reactions and more side effects than I ever imagined I would, and so angry. It's hard to imagine this now, but at the time I remember seeing Joan Lunden, and she's a cancer survivor, and she was all over the magazines with her bald head and a big smile and so inspirational. And I just kept looking at that, and I was telling my daughters, anybody who would listen to how angry I was, I'd be like, do not expect me to be inspirational. Like, this isn't cute. There is nothing cute about this.
Lisa Malia [00:14:34]:
And I know that sounds really harsh, but that's honestly where I was at. I fought in a space of disbelief for a long time, and that's what kept— I think it's what kept me from getting better, was really just not accepting my brother's words, and that did come quite a bit later. I think after he saw how much I was fighting to just keep things as they were instead of letting them change. Once that agreement landed in my body and I decided that somehow, some way, this was going to be more than okay. And really, there was this point of like, okay, I can accept what's happening versus I know what's going to happen. And there was this void in between where, you know, you're still going through treatments, you still have another couple surgeries ahead of you, you're not even sure where that finish line is at this point, right? And so you're starting to accept that maybe this is going to go on longer than you think. But there was a point where I looked in the mirror and I could see myself, but I didn't recognize myself, and I knew that I needed to go on a journey to find myself again and connect with my body again. Somebody who's receiving a lot of medical care, especially, I think I especially, and I know that other women that I've worked with and spoken to can relate to this, that to get through it, you do oftentimes just find yourself detaching to just get through whatever procedure needs to be done that day, and I had found that I had detached completely from my body.
Lisa Malia [00:16:08]:
I didn't recognize her. She didn't look the same. She didn't feel the same. So I was trying to land back in my body, and it was different. I didn't recognize it. It felt weaker. It felt different. I looked different, and that's really where my journey began, was trying to find myself and finding her through my body, just even being able to move again after surgery, you know, signing up for little baby gentle movement yoga classes like a newborn lamb, you know, just trying to walk for the first time again.
Lisa Malia [00:16:36]:
And I got to a point where when I started to see the life in front of me and what I wanted it to look like, like my brother, when I was finally ready to start adding in some pieces, we're talking maybe 12, 18 months, the honest truth where I was really starting to feel like, okay, what do I really want? And how do I also then make sure that I don't go back there, right? Because so often, and it did come after the last visit with the oncologist, when everybody wants to pop the cork of the champagne bottle and go, you're done, it's your last treatment, you're cured, you're good to go, get on with your life. And you kind of sit back and go, what life?
Christina Barsi [00:17:18]:
Like, what is this?
Lisa Malia [00:17:20]:
What? And there's this massive letdown of like, You're kidding me, right? But it was in those moments that I did, I made some promises to myself that I didn't want to fight to get that back. I needed to fight for something else, and what was that going to be, and what promises would I make to myself to ensure that I don't fall into that trap of getting that old life back?
Christina Barsi [00:17:47]:
Wow, thank you for sharing that journey of what sounds like the first year, year and a half. And I say first because I hear you when you say that, you know, everyone treats it as if it ends there. And really there's so much to building and healing and stuff to do after, I'm sure, that I don't think a lot of us talk about enough. And so I appreciate you for really being willing to share it from a real place and And what you said about, you know, not telling people, you know, don't expect me to be inspirational right now. I think that you're giving them very useful information in moments like that because expectations are killers, right? And when we can really set someone up for what we're really experiencing and what we can do, and for me, when I do that for myself, it really helps me like take the pressure off of who I think I'm supposed to be in this scenario, or whatever it happens to be going on. And saying it out loud can really sort of enforce that in a way that isn't necessarily— I know you were angry, but— and that's okay, by the way. I think that's another topic that needs more discussion in general too. But all of that is valid, and I like that you gave yourself permissions in those moments to experience what you're actually feeling, even though those feelings are unwanted usually, but they were happening.
Christina Barsi [00:19:14]:
And being inclusive with those around you, I think, is really, really powerful.
Lisa Malia [00:19:19]:
Yeah, I appreciate that reframe of it. Thank you.
Christina Barsi [00:19:24]:
Yeah, and I know it's easier for me to say outside in and with some distance, but I think that's part of the beauty of perspectives, is being able to kind of turn the prism into different light and see the value in what you did for yourself in that moment and for those around you.
Lisa Malia [00:19:42]:
I love that.
Christina Barsi [00:19:43]:
Yeah, I just appreciate that part very much of your story. And coming back to this point in time that you brought us to, which is, you know, the celebration, the moment where, where it's like, well, I've got a lot of work to do, it seems like. And, um, I'm curious to know, like, what was the first step like for you, or were the first few steps, or how did you start to discover that? Was there— were you journaling during this time, or did you just kind of find a moment? Or yoga, I think, is a great way to get back in our bodies too. Were there other things you were doing to kind of help yourself find some— I want to use the word like to find home again, like in yourself.
Lisa Malia [00:20:22]:
And yeah, yeah, absolutely. And this is a great question. This is actually the point that brings everything together. I didn't know it at the time, but looking back on it now, I can see what I was doing, and I did get very intentional. I sought out spaces that felt safe for me, that felt that I could do all of that journaling. I wanted to be with other women willing to sit in circle. I found some women's circles at this point where we could just explore and feel safe just sharing our hearts and learning from each other and moving our bodies and, you know, without any expectation of what it should look like or feel like, just really gentle, beautiful yoga practices and women's circles. I just dove into probably as many as I could find.
Lisa Malia [00:21:14]:
What I also started doing at that time was trying to connect with other survivors, and this is how I just started my breast cancer support community, building what I craved most. I really wanted to talk with other women and find out what they were going through and how they were getting through it and how they were navigating it. Just wanted to normalize my experience but also seek support. And then also, you know, more women were being diagnosed every day by the hour and wanted to connect with them and just also let them know that they're not alone on this path. Was something I craved more and more was really talking to other women going through this, even though our journeys were all very different. I knew that there was so much commonality in it also, and I wanted to find those threads where we can support each other and just be really authentic with each other. Back to that moment of celebration, you know, finding out that like not everybody feels like they can celebrate in that moment, and some women don't ever even get that moment, right? Feeling like they can't even talk to their family about it anymore, even though they're still battling some of that emotional turmoil. They feel like either, you know, they don't want to keep being a burden to the family, or they talk about it too much, and not out of any ill will.
Lisa Malia [00:22:33]:
The family or your loved ones or your people are so excited for you to be back, and they want you to be well. They want you to feel well. They want you to be your best self, and it's just out of love that they want that for you. But still on the inside you may be battling some things, and a survivor community is such a great place and an outlet for that. So that's why I started creating that, and I felt that that's where I bring all my skills as a midwife to this same place as somebody holding space for transformation and holding that void for all of us of what's next.
Christina Barsi [00:23:08]:
Thank you for all of that. And as you were going to women's circles and you're experiencing those, spaces held by whoever was facilitating or hosting, and then you started to do that as well for also women who were survivors of cancer, or were there other— or is that just how it started?
Lisa Malia [00:23:26]:
At this point, I was creating circles just for breast cancer survivors, because as much as I loved the circles I was sitting in, I thought, gosh, what would happen if this was like— we could do this with just survivors.
Christina Barsi [00:23:38]:
Yeah. Okay, thank you for clarifying that. And how did that evolve into— and I'm going to jump timelines a little bit, I think, here. Yeah, that's fine. I'm wondering how you ended up sort of shifting into working with women in leadership and allowing that to become a big focus, it sounds like, in the work you're doing now. Yeah, just take me along that journey.
Lisa Malia [00:24:01]:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. You know, my time in corporate America taught me a lot. My time as a midwife and as a breast cancer survivor and support group facilitator and just a patient with all the gaps in the system, being a healthcare advocate first, always for women, and just seeing those gaps up close really broke my heart. And in so many ways, you know, when I go through something like this, I can't sleep at night if I don't share what I've learned. And I'm not somebody who likes public I'm not someone who likes writing. I don't— it scares me. I'm just being honest, like, to do things like this, but I do it anyways because I think the message is so important and I just know that it's on my heart to do so and it gives me peace to do it.
Lisa Malia [00:24:48]:
But that's really the evolution of, you know, creating the nonprofit organization to formalize the work that I was doing so that I could have more impact, so that I could reach more women. And just putting all those leadership skills together as a midwife, as a survivor, as a mother, as a corporate leader, and as a nonprofit founder, and getting to hold those spaces for women and knowing how we burn ourselves out so dramatically sometimes, and knowing, because I've been so privileged to sit at the front rows of really the true innate power of wisdom and power of knowing and ability and capacity that we hold as women in points of transformation. Being able to watch somebody during birth, watch somebody go through breast cancer, or go through passing and transitioning to their next life, feeling whole and complete and like they have fulfilled their life's purpose, helping them find meaning in these big transitional moments, and really wanting to reach more women and help them tap into the power that's within them, because I I know that every woman has this, whether she's birthed a child or had breast cancer. And, you know, part of me just wants to catch them before they burn themselves out and say, there is a better way, and I know you know it, and let's go figure it out together. And that's really what led me into the Feminine Leadership Immersion, is just really helping women tap into that power and that source and that knowing with confidence so that they can follow the path that I know that is calling on their heart and find more trust in it and find more belief in themselves around it, because it does feel so awkward at first. Like I said, that baby lamb taking their first step sometimes, and you know, sometimes it doesn't always land the way you thought it would. It's a learning process, and just holding people through that space is what I love to do.
Christina Barsi [00:26:48]:
Thank you. To me, that translates to like the intuitive connection that like knows what we really want and want to do and what our desires are and allowing ourselves to let that be maybe a louder voice. Do you agree with that or do you think it's a little different or what do you think?
Lisa Malia [00:27:04]:
I do, absolutely. I mean, trusting your intuition is really trusting yourself, right? Your inner knowing, your inner guide, your heart. Trusting and creating that pattern of trust within yourself and what you're hearing. That was me back when the universe kept telling me this isn't working, this isn't sustainable, right? And me just trying to negotiate my way out of it. It didn't pay off. It can't help so well. So I've learned oftentimes the hard way what happens when I don't acknowledge my own intuition or when I try to negotiate it.
Christina Barsi [00:27:35]:
Yeah.
Lisa Malia [00:27:36]:
And for me, that really comes down to trusting that soul purpose, right? That, you know, we're all here for a reason and letting ourselves explore that with full permission, taking down all the expectations that life has put on us. And really, what is it you were born to do in this lifetime.
Christina Barsi [00:27:54]:
Yeah, I agree in that I believe everyone has that and everyone can connect to that, and I think sometimes it gets very buried under all the things, the circumstances, the social influences, the whatever messaging we've told ourselves maybe for our whole lives and those around us as well, and it can be very shocking to suddenly think maybe this isn't actually who I am, like the way we're presenting and the action we're putting behind that, that can be sort of a process of letting go of those parts of ourselves. And so I understand why we want to negotiate with that because it's like, oh, that sounds like a lot of work. I don't have time for that. I'll just keep doing it this way. It's fine. But I love that you used the word negotiation because that clicks for me. It's like, you're right. We do do that.
Christina Barsi [00:28:46]:
We try to negotiate with ourselves. Out of like doing the work, let's say, just to simplify what it is. And it's like, well, you know, I'll do it later, or this is inconvenient. It's never convenient. It's never a convenient time, really. So that's always interesting to me as well. I'd love to know what your nonprofit was. Is it still active? And what was the nonprofit?
Lisa Malia [00:29:07]:
It is. It's For the Love of Cups. We do have support groups, and my primary advocacy work is really informing women through their screening process. So the support groups are once you've been diagnosed, but leading up to your screening process and the gaps in care that happen there and how uninformed most women are about understanding their mammograms and understand the adjunct screening methods that often need to take place, especially for women diagnosed at their mammogram with dense breast tissue. And over 43%, they're saying it's actually even probably higher than that now, of women do have dense breast tissue that aren't receiving the additional screening method, which would be a full breast ultrasound to screen through that dense breast tissue to have a clear mammogram reading or clear breast exam reading. Up until recently, there wasn't even a national mandate to communicate with women this information. Recently, after years and years and years of hard work by so many organizations, a national mandate finally passed. Passed that every woman in this country should receive a letter at least notifying her that she has dense breast tissue.
Lisa Malia [00:30:24]:
How it's handled still is— it can range all across the country depending on what state you're in, what county you're in, and what your doctor decides, which is really the unfortunate part. There should be a standard of care for everybody across the nation, and even still, that mandate won't be enacted, I think, now for another year still. I have to go back and get my data points exactly correct, but it still hasn't fully been enacted. And so this is where we come in to really help women feel informed when they go to that mammogram appointment. We have an easy download, 4 questions you need to ask at your mammogram appointment. Here's the follow-up questions, here's what you need to do. And then they can circle back with us with that mammogram report in hand and just learn a little bit of the lingo and what they need to advocate for until some of those policies change. They need to know how to advocate for themselves.
Lisa Malia [00:31:13]:
So that they can trust that when they get a report that says no evidence of breast cancer, that they can actually trust that that's true.
Christina Barsi [00:31:22]:
Wow, that is really useful. And yes, it does feel like a gap, and there's so many gaps in women's health in general, and it's very frustrating. And there's still issues with communication once you're actually experiencing care in any form, with how women are received in those situations. There's a lot of improvement that can still be had there in those spaces, unfortunately.
Lisa Malia [00:31:53]:
Absolutely. That's why we're still here working.
Christina Barsi [00:31:55]:
I'm really glad that you exist, that you've created this. What's the thought behind the name?
Lisa Malia [00:32:00]:
Anything to do with love. It really is the foundation of everything I do and the reason behind my why and how I choose to show up in the world as a vessel for love.
Christina Barsi [00:32:11]:
Okay, well, cup's a vessel.
Lisa Malia [00:32:14]:
Yeah, cup's a vessel, and I obsessed a little bit with anything you can put into a cup and hold. I think that we— this is how we as a society even, right, we connect over a cup of tea, whether it's ourselves, whether it's with another person, or we celebrate. It's always almost with a cup of something in our hand. We commune together. So it's really about taking that quiet moment of reflection with yourself or with a friend or with a community to really pause in that moment. And then of course the L in the word love for Lisa is also a beautiful pink ribbon that my daughter designed for me when I was going through breast cancer. And so I brought that over into into the name of the organization to honor that.
Christina Barsi [00:33:02]:
Wow. Oh, that's so special.
Lisa Malia [00:33:04]:
It really is. Thank you.
Christina Barsi [00:33:05]:
Yeah, that's really special. And that makes sense. Totally makes sense with the name now. And I love hearing those stories. It's so creative and it's so meaningful usually. Thanks for sharing that extra detail.
Lisa Malia [00:33:16]:
I love that. Thank you.
Christina Barsi [00:33:17]:
Yeah. So as you were talking, the last two sort of questions that we explored with the nonprofit and working with women in leadership, I'm wondering I mean, I'm a woman, I'm a woman in leadership, I'm a woman in a lot of those scenarios that we just talked about. So I feel like I have my answer to this, but I'd love to hear what you think. Why it is that women are in need of— not necessarily the breast cancer aspect, because that's maybe more obvious— but women in leadership, why do we need so much more sort of— maybe not more, but the support that you're offering here? What is it that we're trying to do different? Maybe what is it that is maybe incongruent with the way things are in corporate America, for example. Or I would love to just explore that a little bit more of why these spaces are kind of popping up more, which I love. And we're having this conversation more, and at least I am noticing that with the women I work with as well and in leadership. And there's something to it.
Lisa Malia [00:34:15]:
There's a few things I'd love to touch on here. And one of them is the impact and strategy part of what I do, right? But I think when you boil it down, whether it's, you know, in a big business or in your personal life, when we start to look at these visions that we have or these things that we want in our life and the impact that we're actually having, and some people will look at this as like, you know, I'm super goal-oriented, or, you know, I just want to achieve achieve and go after this version of success that I want. Again, on a personal level or on a business level, whatever the project or the vision is. And then getting to that point and realizing that it didn't feel the way you thought it would.
Christina Barsi [00:34:59]:
Yeah.
Lisa Malia [00:35:00]:
You don't even take the opportunity to maybe enjoy the goal once it's achieved. Or maybe you didn't achieve it. Maybe you stopped short of it, or maybe it just didn't come out as planned, or what whatever reason, it didn't have the impact that you thought it would, or you had that impact that, you know, you reached that goal, but again, there was no satisfaction or joy behind it, and there was certainly no pause. It was just on to the next thing, and I find that to be just a very part of the toxic patriarchal system of just that on to the next, on to the next, go take the next thing, go hit the next thing, go get the next target, go accomplish the next thing. That didn't work, I'll try again. That didn't work, I'll try again. I'll just keep going after it until I do, and that is just how we burn ourselves out. I know logically that makes sense, but then when you think about like, how do I actually reverse engineer this, right? So that I'm having the experiences I want to have, so that this feels the way that I want it to, so that success actually feels joyful, like I can celebrate that, so I can honor this moment, and I can reflect on it.
Lisa Malia [00:36:11]:
And what I see so often is, you know, women in leadership, whether it's, you know, having a stronger voice in their home or a bigger presence in their community or taking on these roles in businesses and still trying to fit into the mold that was created in that role, right? Still trying to fit a mold that doesn't fit them, trying to do it in a way that doesn't feel good to them. And that's just where I would call the spiritual burnout comes in, because you know you could do this better. You know that there's a better way, right? But you're still kind of feeling like you're forced, like you're trapped, and much the way that I was feeling, you know, just before my diagnosis, that I couldn't take a week off. Are you crazy? There is no time for me to figure out how to do things differently. And yet you know in your heart, in your bones, in your soul that this must be done differently. So how often are you sitting in a meeting and staying silent or how often do you, you know, shape-shift and put on different masks to fit into different roles, different priorities, show up in a different way here, be this person there, and just wasting your energy instead of bringing your knowing, your brilliance to the table and creating a different way, right, for yourself first and then out into the rest of the world. And that comes together with my work as, you know, an impact strategist in the nonprofit world, but really seeing how that boiled down to just the way we're showing up in our everyday lives.
Christina Barsi [00:37:40]:
I mean, all that I resonate with, and it's a lot of the realizations I've been making and having conversations or trying to bring conversations to the forefront around that idea. I notice whenever I do decide to be the one person having that conversation in a place where you may not expect it, it really resonates with those who are listening, and I find that rewarding. But also, like, there's something there, and there's some more work to do around that sort of shift that may take some time. But it, it's always a delight to see someone like yourself creating space, because it does feel like it's space. We need the space, and permission to me feels like space, and validation can feel like space. And when we have conversations, we cultivate all of that. And when we create something like programs and circles and things that you're creating, that allows for those moments to kind of percolate and evolve and become perhaps louder than the old way, and the box starts to crumble a little.
Lisa Malia [00:38:45]:
Yes, absolutely. And that's what happens in these spaces and in these circles. It's the time we get to lay down all the masks, right? And just go exhale, realize that, you know, the other women in the room want the same thing, and you're just gonna let yourselves all be a little bit messy together. And it's okay as you decide, much like my brother told me, what it is you're gonna call in, what it is you're gonna do, and how you're gonna do it. And practice.
Christina Barsi [00:39:13]:
Yeah, that's beautiful. The practice part too. It's important. It's a practice.
Lisa Malia [00:39:19]:
Yeah, that first time you speak up from that place, right?
Christina Barsi [00:39:22]:
You're like, "Oh, what's that?" Yeah, it can be shocking too at first, depending, you know, on whoever's, you know, being impacted by it.
Lisa Malia [00:39:33]:
If it's your family or your team, you know, that you need to inform, you know, "I want to do things in this way," you know, on a big scale or on a small scale, right? "We're going to try this." get on board.
Christina Barsi [00:39:46]:
Yeah, it's sometimes hard to be your own advocate and lead at the same time and get others to be on board with something that you're still figuring out for yourself. I think that's an interesting dynamic too, specific to women in leadership roles. Again, whether it be in your home life, maybe you're, you know, as a mother, that still is true, you know, at home.
Lisa Malia [00:40:09]:
Absolutely.
Christina Barsi [00:40:09]:
The family, or, you know, if you're in corporate or if you are whatever it may be, I kind of feel like all women are women in leadership.
Lisa Malia [00:40:20]:
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. We're all impacting our communities.
Christina Barsi [00:40:24]:
Yeah. All that said, do you want to tell us a little bit about the program that you're facilitating at the moment, however you prefer to phrase that?
Lisa Malia [00:40:31]:
Yes. No, that's exactly right. Yeah, the Feminine Leadership Immersion. It's under my Evoke leadership offerings, and this one is starting next month, and it's a cohort of women where we spend 12 weeks together diving into the 3 key elements of feminine leadership. For me, I've identified our sacred purpose being our North Star, and having that aligned impact in our lives is the second element, and Making sure that we're having those experiences and that they're feeling the way they ought to, and if they're not, then why not? You know, what energy loops do we need to tie up or correct or embrace so that those experiences and the impact that we're having feel authentic and true to that sacred purpose? And we do that through a life as ritual. So embracing taking those moments and allowing that sacred space and that intuition and cultivating it and cultivating that relationship of self-trust and bringing that life as ritual into everything that we do so that we are mindfully connecting with ourselves first and then being able to show up out in the world, the feeling whole and present and mindful in what we're doing so that we can have a little bit more joy and ease and trust in the process as we go and navigate and You know, be okay with uncomfortable unknown, or understand that if, you know, something didn't go the way we thought it would, that, you know, developing that sense of trust that you haven't gotten it wrong, you haven't totally messed up. If you feel that way, let's explore it, right? Let's just get the information, get the nuggets out of there, and find out what's really, you know, what's really happening here so that we can put it back together and move forward.
Christina Barsi [00:42:23]:
Love that. It's like a very sacred mastermind almost, but with so much more than that. I think it's so much of how I like to create spaces too, and it's really nice to hear sort of your process too around that. You said a few times life as a ritual. How would you define that?
Lisa Malia [00:42:43]:
For me, I have my daily practice, right? And my home setting, my environment, anytime, anywhere that I'm at, right? There's my daily practice to always hold me, and it doesn't look the same every day. But once I'm tapped into myself and that process of ritual, you start to notice that there's ritual really almost everywhere, and letting yourself sort of indulge in those moments of mindfulness and clarity and connection. And that's really what I believe it does. It just helps us feel more connected and in tune and in flow with the people and things around us and with the Earth, you know, following her wisdom, her intuition, her cycles, her knowing, and her seasons. And especially as women, we cycle with the moon, whether you bleed or not, right? We as humans are tapped into the moon, and the moon has its cycles and rhythms. And I do believe that there's ways that we can tap into those rituals —on a daily basis, on a seasonal basis, and on a 28-day cycle—honoring all those rhythms to show up energetically in alignment. And I do bring that energy and that wisdom. I feel like when we are tapped into ourselves and we're tapped into the regenerative wisdom of this planet, right? So she can produce and produce and produce season after season after season.
Lisa Malia [00:44:10]:
Without burning out, so long as we treat her well, right? So this is why I believe feminine wisdom and leadership is so necessary at this time, because we can see the ways in which we are depleting this planet and we are poisoning her in so many ways. We can do better. And the way this is reflected in our bodies and, you know, with breast cancer or other illnesses, and by burning ourselves out in the same way. So if we can operate in a more wholesome way, in a more healthy way, following the wisdom of this gorgeous Earth, right, it increases our capacity to know what's true and create regenerative processes in our own lives and in our own homes and in our own businesses. And that's really what I love— taking all of this to the next level and creating regenerative outcomes so that it's not that I've just achieved the thing, I got the goal, I got the thing so that it's actually a life-giving program that creates its own energy, that it has its own seasons and cycles, and so that we have the energy for the next season and the next thing and the next cycle. I do that through Life as Ritual, but really it's so much more. It expands and touches on everything to really create regenerative outcomes in every way. Amazing!
Christina Barsi [00:45:28]:
I love the connection and harmony across everything. And it brings me back to your spider totem in a lot of ways, because that is such a regenerative sort of symbolism in that animal spirit as well. And, um, I see how deeply connected you are to this form of process, and I love the term regenerative outcomes. That is amazing. It makes so much sense, just without any definition. It's like, okay, I think I know what that means. And there's an energy to that phrasing. So I love the way you shared about that and the whole process.
Christina Barsi [00:46:07]:
And I've— it's how I've been connecting lately too, and finding so much wisdom and abundance through watching the nature and the seasons and the animals and the and the abundance that it produces for itself in this regenerative way. So you really summed it up nicely for me to process, because I've been thinking about that a lot without those words, and it really helps define a truth that I've been sort of discovering as well. So thank you for that. I'll take that as a personal gem that I got out of this. Beyond— there's so much more too, but that one really hit for me. Yeah, thank you for that.
Lisa Malia [00:46:52]:
I think it's so hard to sometimes put some of these concepts into the practical, as so many of us can say, "Oh, that sounds nice, but how?" Yeah, exactly.
Christina Barsi [00:47:02]:
And when we have these ways to do words and phrases and ways to explain things in these ways that can sometimes feel very esoteric, I'm always very appreciative, and it's usually epiphany-inducing. So yeah, thank you for for that, for the work you did to kind of put that together. And speaking of gems and epiphanies, if there's one thing you would like the listener to walk away with from today's conversation, what would that be?
Lisa Malia [00:47:30]:
You know, I think it would go back to the beginning of our conversation and really just encourage our listeners to find those places where they can have these intentional conversations. If you don't feel like you have that person in your life, or you want to create a space where you can have more intentional conversations and just share these parts of you that you maybe feel like you're holding back, that can't be seen or haven't been seen, and you want them to be able to be developed or expressed, finding spaces where you can be fully seen. That might be a friend that you have now that you just need to reach out and and spend a little bit more time with. You know, sometimes we can get so caught up in surface-level conversations and desperate to want more, and sometimes we just need to say it and name it and realize that those people are in our environment already, and sometimes we need to go seek them out. But I think if any of this rings true for you, finding community to support you and spaces where you do feel seen, you know, especially if you're in environments where you don't feel like that's even possible, much like I did. Go find the environments where it does feel safe and possible until it can start to branch out into the other areas of your life.
Christina Barsi [00:48:45]:
Yeah, it's a great way to share how someone might start if they haven't done this before, or if they're having to rethink how they do it and all that good stuff. So thank you for that.
Lisa Malia [00:48:55]:
Yeah, I think at every phase that's necessary. I need it to this moment.
Christina Barsi [00:49:00]:
Yeah, and yeah, not to say that it's never unneeded, but I often have amnesia when I'm going through a new transformation or growth moment. It's like, oh yeah, like, how did I do that before? It looks different this time. Or, you know, it's like knowing that that's okay as well. And absolutely. Yeah, thank you for that. How can we connect with you?
Lisa Malia [00:49:20]:
I am on Instagram at @lovelisamalia. I'm also on LinkedIn, Lisa Malia Norman. And my website, LisaMalia.co. There's no M, just.co. So those are the best ways. Email me, reach out to me, message me. I love connecting. I love hearing from women in general.
Lisa Malia [00:49:41]:
If they just want to share something, they want to share what they're resonating with, what they're moving through, if they would like some support, direct them in the direction if I can and support them if I can. So I'm open, easily accessible in any of those ways. So I guess that's the message. If you feel compelled to reach out, please do.
Christina Barsi [00:50:02]:
Thank you so much, Lisa. This was such a lovely conversation, and I know it's going to resonate with a lot of those who are listening today. And just thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing your story.
Lisa Malia [00:50:15]:
It is an absolute pleasure. I'm so grateful for you, Barsi. Thank you for the work you're doing and for having me here today. What a joy.
